15.4.46

Q. Well, so as to have a clear picture, did you ever negotiate these matters with the defendant?

A. No.

Q. Did you learn that towards the end of the war concentration camps were evacuated, and, if so, who gave the orders?

A. Let me explain. Originally there was an order from the Reichsführer, according to which camps, in the event of an approaching enemy or in the event of air attacks, were to be surrendered to the enemy. Later on, with respect to the case of Buchenwald, which had been reported to the Führer, there was ... No, at the beginning of 1945, when various camps came within operational sphere of the enemy, this order was withdrawn. The Reichsführer ordered the Higher S.S. and police leaders, who in an emergency were responsible for the security and safety of the camps, to decide themselves whether an evacuation or a surrender was appropriate.

Auschwitz and Grossrosen were evacuated. Buchenwald was also to be evacuated, but then the order from the Reichsführer came through to the effect that no more camps were to be evacuated. Only prominent inmates and inmates who were not to fall into allied hands under any circumstances were to be taken away to other camps. This also happened in the case of Buchenwald. After Buchenwald had been occupied, it was reported to the Führer that detainees had armed themselves and were carrying out plunderings in the town of Weimar. This caused the Führer to give the strictest order to Himmler to the effect that in the future no more camps were to fall into the hands of the enemy, and that no more detainees capable of marching were to be left behind in any camp.

This was shortly before the end of the war, and shortly before Northern and Southern Germany were separated. I shall speak about the Sachsenhausen camp. The Gestapo Chief, Gruppenführer Müller, asked me to see him one evening and told me that the Reichsführer had ordered that the camp at Sachsenhausen was to be evacuated at once. I pointed out to Gruppenführer Müller what that would mean. Sachsenhausen could no longer depend on any other camps for accommodation except, perhaps, a few labour camps attached to the armament works that were almost filled up anyway. Most of the detainees would have to be lodged in the woods somewhere. This would mean countless thousands of deaths and, above all, it would be impossible to feed these masses of people. He promised me that he would once more discuss the matter with the Reichsführer. He called me back and told me that the Reichsführer had refused to rescind the order and demanded that the commandants should carry out his order immediately.

At the same time Ravensbrueck was also to be evacuated in the same manner but it could no longer be done. I do not know whether camps In Southern Germany were cleared or not, since we, the Inspectorate, had no longer any connection with Southern Germany.

Q. It has been maintained here - and this is my last question - that the defendant Kaltenbrunner gave the order that the detainees at Dachau and in two auxiliary camps were to be destroyed by bombing and with poison. I ask you, did you hear anything about this; if not, would you consider such an order possible?

A. I have never heard anything about this, and I don't know anything either about an order to evacuate any camps in Southern Germany, as I have already mentioned. Apart from that, I consider it quite impossible that a camp could be destroyed by this method.

DR KAUFFMANN: I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defendants' counsel want to ask any questions?

DR. MERKEL (for the Gestapo):

BY DR. MERKEL:

Q. Witness, did the State Police, as an authority of the Reich, have anything to do with the destruction of Jews in Auschwitz?