23 April 1999

TRANSCRIPT: UK PRIME MINISTER TONY BLAIR INTERVIEW ON PBS 4/23

(Says "racial genocide" justifies international action) (2210)

Washington -- British Prime Minister Tony Blair says although the "principle of non-interference in the affairs of another state is a very good principle," there are some circumstances such as "racial genocide" where "our strategic interests are dramatically engaged."

At such times, he said during an interview on the PBS "Newshour with Jim Lehrer" April 23, "we do have to think of what I call a doctrine of international community, where we are prepared to act, where we are prepared to take a lead."

Drawing an analogy with actions taken to constrain Saddam Hussein of Iraq, whom he called "a leader who was a dictator, utterly ruthless, prepared to wage war on his neighbors," Blair said NATO's action regarding Kosovo "has to be successful for us." He said "we are doing it because it is the right thing to do."

Following is the UK transcript:

(begin transcript)

Edited transcript of an interview with the British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, with 'The Newshour with Jim Lehrer' (PBS) 23 April 1999

INTERVIEWER: Is it correct to say that you now believe ground troops should be used in Kosovo?

PRIME MINISTER: The position, as I have set it out in the last few days, is the same as the Secretary General of NATO, Mr. Solana, which is that we should plan and assess all options, but the air campaign continues and it is important that we make it effective.

INTERVIEWER: The air campaign has essentially not worked, has it?

PRIME MINISTER: No, I don't believe that is right. I think it is possible to exaggerate both ways on this, and I think that the sensible position is to look at the damage that has been done by the air campaign. Half the top aircraft of Milosevic are down; his air defences are down; his oil refineries and oil depots have been hugely hit; his lines of communication, his lines of supply have been badly affected; his whole command and control centre, his military infrastructure has been targeted and badly hit. We are getting after people on the ground now, we are hitting tanks and artillery and people on the ground in Kosovo. If you are asking me does it still have some way to go, the answer is yes - but it certainly wouldn't be correct to say it hasn't been effective.

INTERVIEWER: But it has not been effective in accomplishing what NATO wanted to accomplish, has it, which is to end ethnic cleansing? Wasn't that the number one priority?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes it was, but remember this, it isn't over yet, number one; but number two, irrespective of the argument about ground troops, and it is terribly important people realise this, we would be in an air campaign at this stage in any event, because of the time it takes to assemble such a force.

INTERVIEWER: Did you personally believe that it would go this far, that Milosevic would hang in there for four weeks after this bombing campaign?

PRIME MINISTER: I think nobody who has watched the detail of the negotiation in the months leading up to this was in any doubt that it wasn't going to happen overnight. Indeed I said in my very first statement to the House of Commons, before the NATO action began, I said we have got to prepare for the long term, this isn't going to happen overnight. We have been focused on this for really six months or so before this action began, because we threatened action back in October last year - he backed down; we then had a further whole process of negotiation where we were going the extra mile to try and get a diplomatic solution, precisely because we knew this man is unpredictable - he is a dictator and he has done some terrible things before. So this is not totally unforeseeable.

INTERVIEWER: Why was the ground forces option not on the table from the very beginning?

PRIME MINISTER: As we said right from the very beginning, we always anticipated using ground forces in order to go in and police a settlement. But what again we have said for a significant period of time is that we plan and have all options under review. But the air campaign was our chosen, and in my view the right, method of getting this campaign under way and doing the damage that we needed to do to Milosevic. Significant damage has actually been done.

INTERVIEWER: But wasn't there a practical political element here too, that you all have been at least publicly unwilling to acknowledge - that the 19 countries of NATO would not have supported that at the very beginning, and you had to take it one step at a time. Is that correct?

PRIME MINISTER: That is not the reason, because the reason is - as I say to you - that we were going to do the air campaign. But you are right of course, we do have to take the NATO countries with us, we are an Alliance. But I also think that just a few days into this campaign the whole mood towards it changed in this sense: the question that people like yourself asked in Britain during the first few days was, was this campaign justified? After seeing what Milosevic did to the refugees, I don't think people ask that question any more; the question they now ask is is it effective, and we have to make sure that it is effective and that is the purpose of carrying through the missions we are doing and intensifying the campaign.

INTERVIEWER: Are the people of Great Britain ready to send their young people to die on the ground in Kosovo?

PRIME MINISTER: We take risks the moment we start any form of military campaign, even with our aircrews; they are risking their lives every night. Look, nobody wants to be in this situation, nobody wants to be in this conflict - but as I again said right at the very beginning, we have a simple choice: we either stand aside and let this man conduct a policy effectively of racial genocide in a part of Europe; or we say I am afraid we are not going to allow that, we are going to act. And I think people understand that. And even when something terrible happens, as you will know the bombing of the civilian convoy that happened, and it is a terrible thing because of course we do not mean to harm civilians at all, I think people understand that in a conflict, in a war such as this people, including innocent people, die but the choice is still the same: we either act or we don't. And the person responsible for every single piece of misery and pain inflicted in this conflict is Milosevic.

INTERVIEWER: The bombing, the most recent target that has gotten the most publicity, is the bombing of the television station in Belgrade. What was the point of that?

PRIME MINISTER: We have to target his military machine and the whole apparatus of dictatorship. The state-controlled media is one part of that, and I think it is a right and justified target for us. We are expected as political leaders to discuss almost every aspect of strategy and tactics in an open way. I am being interviewed by you here, and by other people in Britain and around the world. Milosevic isn't conducting that type of campaign, it is a dictatorship. His whole network of power is based on giving the top businesses to his friends; it is based on giving special privileged positions to his family; he has amassed a huge personal wealth on the backs of the people of Serbia and he has this dictatorship in place through things like the state-run media - and we have got to be prepared to tackle that whole apparatus of the power and really bring it home to him. And also to say to the Serbian people: 'our quarrel is not with you, it is with the man who has conducted the most appalling campaign of killing and brutality in your name.'

INTERVIEWER: President Clinton has been criticised in this country, rightly or wrongly, for being involved in selecting targets. As a practical matter, did you clear the bombing of the television station in Belgrade, is that the kind of thing the political leaders of NATO are doing?

PRIME MINISTER: There is a process that we go through, but if you are saying to me 'do I sit there and pour over targets', that is not my job, that is for the guys that I have in the military to do that. My job is to get out there and make sure that the overall strategy of the campaign is right, and that we are giving our military people every back-up they need in order to make sure that it is effective.

INTERVIEWER: But you were not surprised and said 'Oh my goodness we have bombed the Belgrade television station', you knew that was going to happen?

PRIME MINISTER: No. We certainly knew that these things were legitimate targets, absolutely, and they are legitimate targets.

INTERVIEWER: Much has been said about you and other NATO leaders, including President Clinton, of being of a generation that was anti-war when you were younger, now actually running this war. Are you comfortable with that?

PRIME MINISTER: Well I have never been anti-war if the war is justified; my father fought in the Second World War, and I hope very much that if I had been his age at the time, I would have been doing the same. So I don't have any difficulty in saying you need sometimes to use force - and when you are against a bloody dictator who is engaged in a policy of racial genocide, then I believe force is necessary.

I think what people in a sense mean is that this is a different generation that hasn't had to face a situation like this before - well no we haven't, and my goodness we tried to avoid it, as responsibly we should. When I put young men's lives at risk, as I am doing, I do it with a very, very heavy heart and a great sense of responsibility; and I have no doubt at all that your President does the same, and every Prime Minister and President involved in this conflict. But we do have a choice. There aren't any easy options, the options in the end are you let him do it or you try and stop him, and my view is we have to stop him.

INTERVIEWER: Is it correct to say that what you are saying is that in this new world, this new post-Cold War generation that we are in, that you and the other leaders of NATO or of the civilised world have the right to intervene in internal affairs of countries, if you decide what they are doing doesn't meet your high standards?

PRIME MINISTER: I am saying that we shouldn't interfere in every conflict, and the principle of non-interference in the affairs of another state is a very sound principle. But I am saying there are circumstances - racial genocide, where our strategic interests are dramatically engaged, circumstances where we have exhausted every diplomatic solution, circumstances where we have the capability to act - that we do have to think of what I call a doctrine of international community, where we are prepared to act, where we are prepared to take a lead.

And I am also saying that it is important both with the globalisation of economics, of the environment, of issues like third world debt and of security in disarmament issues, that we don't focus whenever there is a crisis, but lose focus when there isn't. We must realise that there are certain issues that we have to remain focused and engaged with the whole time, because this is the world in which we live. Our national interests are more dependent on international cooperation today than ever before, certainly even at the time when NATO was established.

INTERVIEWER: So that would mean then success in Kosovo is absolutely paramount, is it not? If this is going to be an example of the future, it has to work?

PRIME MINISTER: It does have to work, I have no doubt about that at all. It is the same with the action we took against Saddam, many people criticised us. I believe if Saddam has been allowed to develop chemical, nuclear, biological weapons and we had stood aside, then at some point we would have had to have dealt with a resurgent Iraq under a leader who was a dictator, utterly ruthless, prepared to wage war on his neighbours. We took action there, and as a result he is back constrained again. So I think it is important that we are prepared to act and you are quite right, Kosovo has to be successful for us, but we are doing it because it is the right thing to do.

(end transcript)